Law school loose ends

Feb 10th, 2010 by admin

Posted in Uncategorized

17 Responses to “Law school loose ends”

UMN LAW 2009 GRAD says:

February 10, 2010 at 3:57 pm

The point about not going to the best school you get into is very good advice. I doubt I would have been at the topic of my class if I went to a school in the 60-90 range. But I feel confident my class rank would have been higher and my debt much lower.
Fellow UMN Law 2009 Grad says:

February 10, 2010 at 4:04 pm

But if you go to a lower-ranked school, realize that your jobs prospects diminish more quickly as your ranking drops.
The top students at lower tier law schools still generally find good jobs, but the students who graduate in the latter half of their class often do not ever practice. The same generally cannot be said for the U (though perhaps this year’s graduates are the exception).
T3 Student says:

February 10, 2010 at 5:13 pm

I’d add one thing to that excellent advice. If it comes down to a choice between paying tuition at a higher-ranked school and a full scholarship at a lower-ranked school, take the scholarship. Not only is it incredibly liberating to graduate from law school with no debt, but the scholarship offer may indicate that your position relative to other applicants means you’re more likely to end up near the top of your class.

Of course, from another perspective, it’s a little perverse: the students graduating at the top of their class are often the ones who had full scholarships, which means that many of the graduates most able to pay off law school debts have little or no debt to pay. Meanwhile, there are lots of students who graduate in the lower half of their classes and have heavy debt loads to pay off.

Systematically, it’s not pretty. But for the individual applicant, the lesson is clear: go to school for free if you can.
BigLaw Attorney says:

February 11, 2010 at 7:44 am

No debt is great, but the bigger law firms are not going to go very deep into the class at Hamline or William mitchell. These firms only take the top one or two students at Hamline/W-mitchell, while they’ll go deeper into St. T, and even deeper into minnesota. I think it is worth it if you are looking at a $50,000 differential in total debt at graduation. Otherwise, students should take the better school if onlly because it increases their chances at a job.
Anonymous says:

February 11, 2010 at 9:11 am

why would they go deeper into STU than Hamline/William Mitchell?
My Two Cents says:

February 11, 2010 at 10:08 am

I disagree with the advice of selecting a less selective school and shooting for graduating near the top of the class. There are a lot of things that can happen — completely out of your control — that can affect your class standing.

I’d advise: go top-tier or don’t go. In this area, that means the University of Minnesota.
UMN 2L says:

February 11, 2010 at 10:20 am

I turned down a full ride to St. Thomas in order to pay near-full tuition at the U. In this economy, I’ve come to regret it simply because of the debt and job uncertainty. However, there’s no guarantee I would have been higher in the class and thus landed a job coming out of St. T. Full ride at TTT vs. median at UMN with a bunch of debt…who knows how this will turn out.

If I could do it again, I’d take the full ride. Being unemployed after law school would be a lot easier with no debt.
Curious says:

February 11, 2010 at 11:07 am

Out of curiousity, BigLaw, but my understanding is that St. T is not considered a top tier either, and there wouldn’t be a deeper dive there – it would be at (or below, given its relative newness) the level of Hamline or Mitchell. I’ve also heard that Mitchell gets a little more action, as it has more students with practical, real-life experience, and has the recognition of the legal community, particularly locally. What’s the reason for the deeper dive at St. T?
Anon says:

February 11, 2010 at 3:02 pm

@UMN 2L- I was in the exact same position as you and took the scholarship. Four years later I’m fortunate to be living on a modest clerk’s salary and couldn’t be happier with my decision. For those who want to practice BigLaw it might be a tough call between the two options, but for the majority of people I think it’s tough to justify the debt.
Anonymous says:

February 11, 2010 at 3:05 pm

Mitchell does have a bigger alumni base and better reputation, but St. T is ranked higher by US News.
T3 Student says:

February 11, 2010 at 4:16 pm

Actually, St. Thomas and Mitchell are both T3 in the latest US News reports. Schools are not ranked within the third and fourth tiers.
Wmitch v. St. Thomas says:

February 11, 2010 at 7:39 pm

Not sure where BigLaw Attorney is getting their comparison between Wmitch and St. Thomas, but that isn’t the case at all at my firm, or from what my colleagues at other firms have expressed. St. Thomas does not place at the large or even mid-size firms in the Twin Cities like Mitchell, and it is not even close. The U out places both. Bottom line, this isn’t a good time to be going to law school, and that’s what I tell anyone that asks me for advice. Frankly I don’t think the market is going to ever recover to where it was pre-2008, and those who go to law school dreaming of 6 figures after a quick 3 years are going to be very disappointed.
Patrick says:

February 12, 2010 at 10:12 am

I meant to post this earlier…

There are about a dozen outfits that rank law schools and some of them wanted me to pay to see their rankings (Yeah right, like anyone is going to pay to use the Internet. I am talking to you NYT!)

But it seems U.S. News & World Report is a publication that most everyone is familiar with and seems to have the most weight in these discussions. Though what goes into ranking a law school is fodder for a whole separate series of online arguments.

According to the 2009 rankings:

The U of M is tied for 20th with Boston University and Emory University. The U is one point ahead of Indiana and one behind Washington University, St. Louis.

And then it drops off after that. U.S. News does not assign a number ranking outside of the Top 100. Those schools fall into Tier 3 and Tier 4.

William Mitchell and the University of St. Thomas were ranked in Tier 3. Hamline was ranked in Tier 4.
Anonymous says:

February 12, 2010 at 1:02 pm

WM is a good school, and probably better than its 3rd Tier/4th Tier rankings (it flops between the two, as does Hamline). The statistics from BigLaw summer associate classes does indicate that St. T places better at the larger (300+) law firms in the state, though in this market I don’t think the difference is too significant, as no one is really getting jobs at either school.
Anonymous says:

February 12, 2010 at 1:16 pm

William Mitchell was ranked in the fourth tier last year, but this year it moved up to the third tier. It straddles that 3/4th tier line.
HamlineGrad says:

February 12, 2010 at 11:33 pm

For what it’s worth, I took the full ride at Hamline, and landed an in-house position at a local Fortune 50 company right out of law school. I was torn when I was going through the admissions process–go “big” at the U, or take the free education at fourth-tier Hamline. I’ve never regretted Hamline. Like anything in life, you get what you put in, and if you work hard, it’s going to pay off–no matter where you go.

For those considering third- or fourth-tier law schools, I made just as much as a new Faegre associate my first year working in-house, and no one asked me during the interview process where I went to school….
Anonymous says:

February 14, 2010 at 1:01 pm

In this market, I would take a full ride at St. T over the $120k in debt I have from the U. If I am layed off, I’m screwed.