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	<title>Comments on: Is a JD becoming a &#039;bad gamble?&#039;</title>
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		<title>By: Bitter News, 6-15-09 &#124; Bitter Lawyer</title>
		<link>http://minnlawyer.com/minnlawyerblog/2009/06/15/is-a-jd-becoming-a-bad-gamble/comment-page-1/#comment-28931</link>
		<dc:creator>Bitter News, 6-15-09 &#124; Bitter Lawyer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Jun 2011 17:25:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://minnlawyerblog.com/?p=2766#comment-28931</guid>
		<description>[...] [The New York Times] &#8226; What was a worse gamble: Your busted online poker account or your JD? [Las Vegas Sun] &#8226; Convincing a jury of insanity can drive you insane—and it’s just a [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] [The New York Times] &#8226; What was a worse gamble: Your busted online poker account or your JD? [Las Vegas Sun] &#8226; Convincing a jury of insanity can drive you insane—and it’s just a [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Steve</title>
		<link>http://minnlawyer.com/minnlawyerblog/2009/06/15/is-a-jd-becoming-a-bad-gamble/comment-page-1/#comment-12625</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 Oct 2010 06:53:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://minnlawyerblog.com/?p=2766#comment-12625</guid>
		<description>Hi there,

I recently earned my Bachelors degree in Sociology...yup. I&#039;ve got a funny feeling that Environmental Law degrees and/or Energy Law and Entrepreneurship are going to be profitable markets considering the bell shape of technological advancements in biological/chemical/nanotech/solar and whatever else that can potentially finally deliver Nikola Tesla&#039;s dream of massive energy numbers to all people on the planet. Do any of you see where I&#039;m going with this thread and the true value of getting one&#039;s foot in the door of an important corporation concerned with energy regulation (taxation?) and/or environmental conservation resouce acquisition laws? Really vague. Hopefully one of you smart ones can toss us a nickle and stop bickering on the gamble.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi there,</p>
<p>I recently earned my Bachelors degree in Sociology&#8230;yup. I&#8217;ve got a funny feeling that Environmental Law degrees and/or Energy Law and Entrepreneurship are going to be profitable markets considering the bell shape of technological advancements in biological/chemical/nanotech/solar and whatever else that can potentially finally deliver Nikola Tesla&#8217;s dream of massive energy numbers to all people on the planet. Do any of you see where I&#8217;m going with this thread and the true value of getting one&#8217;s foot in the door of an important corporation concerned with energy regulation (taxation?) and/or environmental conservation resouce acquisition laws? Really vague. Hopefully one of you smart ones can toss us a nickle and stop bickering on the gamble.</p>
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		<title>By: The incredible case of the law grad $400K in debt &#171; MinnLawyer blog</title>
		<link>http://minnlawyer.com/minnlawyerblog/2009/06/15/is-a-jd-becoming-a-bad-gamble/comment-page-1/#comment-1104</link>
		<dc:creator>The incredible case of the law grad $400K in debt &#171; MinnLawyer blog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Jul 2009 15:10:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://minnlawyerblog.com/?p=2766#comment-1104</guid>
		<description>[...] on this site about the pernicious effects of growing law student debt loads (see, e.g., here, here, here and here.) . In case you missed it, there was a story in the New York Times that provides a [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] on this site about the pernicious effects of growing law student debt loads (see, e.g., here, here, here and here.) . In case you missed it, there was a story in the New York Times that provides a [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Westee</title>
		<link>http://minnlawyer.com/minnlawyerblog/2009/06/15/is-a-jd-becoming-a-bad-gamble/comment-page-1/#comment-1089</link>
		<dc:creator>Westee</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Jun 2009 21:29:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://minnlawyerblog.com/?p=2766#comment-1089</guid>
		<description>I am also a bit resentful that I am saddled with high loan debt with no opportunity to work at my choice of law practi. However, I will never resent the fact that I have a law degree, a law license, and am able to participate in what having a law degree is REALLY suppose to be about: working a Profession.

&quot;. . . a calling requiring specialized knowledge and often long and intensive preparation including instruction in skills and methods as well as in the scientific, historical, or scholarly principles underlying such skills and methods, maintaining by force of organization or concerted opinion high standards of achievement and conduct, and committing its members to continued study and to a kind of work which has for its prime purpose the rendering of a public service . . . &quot;

 http://www.annals.org/cgi/content/abstract/85/5/675

Since the true professions only include divinity, medicine, and law, we attorneys are in a very small group of people dedicated to provide service to those in need of our higher knowledge in the field. Our responsibilities rest on integrity, service, and assisting others in receiving justice and do not focus on whether our pay equals those who operate wall street hedge funds or CEOs that make decisions on the basis of risk and gain for the benefit of paying dividends to its shareholders with no consideration for that decision&#039;s greater effect.

Only those who hold a law degree and license may walk the walk of a legal professional. If someone wants to enter the legal profession, they are choosing to walk, talk, and act as our profession requires, overseen by other attorneys, for the greater good of human-kind. It is time that self-actualization is not measured by money and objects, but on self growth and life participation.

 It is the greed of the lenders who seek to make profits off those who seek a legal education and also the fault of the law schools who charge ridiculously high tuition (400% increase since the 90s) that should be admonished for not properly preparing its students for what the profession is really about.

&quot;self-actualizing people see life clearly. They are less emotional and more objective, less likely to allow hopes, fears, or ego defenses to distort their observations. Maslow found that all self-actualizing people are dedicated to a vocation or a cause. Two requirements for growth are commitment to something greater than oneself and success at one&#039;s chosen tasks. Major characteristics of self-actualizing people include creativity, spontaneity, courage, and hard work.&quot;

http://www.abraham-maslow.com/m_motivation/Hierarchy_of_Needs.asp

It is my opinion that if a law student is not seeking the true profession of law by attending law school, perhaps attending a business school and receiving an MBA is their better choice.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am also a bit resentful that I am saddled with high loan debt with no opportunity to work at my choice of law practi. However, I will never resent the fact that I have a law degree, a law license, and am able to participate in what having a law degree is REALLY suppose to be about: working a Profession.</p>
<p>&#8220;. . . a calling requiring specialized knowledge and often long and intensive preparation including instruction in skills and methods as well as in the scientific, historical, or scholarly principles underlying such skills and methods, maintaining by force of organization or concerted opinion high standards of achievement and conduct, and committing its members to continued study and to a kind of work which has for its prime purpose the rendering of a public service . . . &#8221;</p>
<p> <a href="http://www.annals.org/cgi/content/abstract/85/5/675" rel="nofollow">http://www.annals.org/cgi/content/abstract/85/5/675</a></p>
<p>Since the true professions only include divinity, medicine, and law, we attorneys are in a very small group of people dedicated to provide service to those in need of our higher knowledge in the field. Our responsibilities rest on integrity, service, and assisting others in receiving justice and do not focus on whether our pay equals those who operate wall street hedge funds or CEOs that make decisions on the basis of risk and gain for the benefit of paying dividends to its shareholders with no consideration for that decision&#8217;s greater effect.</p>
<p>Only those who hold a law degree and license may walk the walk of a legal professional. If someone wants to enter the legal profession, they are choosing to walk, talk, and act as our profession requires, overseen by other attorneys, for the greater good of human-kind. It is time that self-actualization is not measured by money and objects, but on self growth and life participation.</p>
<p> It is the greed of the lenders who seek to make profits off those who seek a legal education and also the fault of the law schools who charge ridiculously high tuition (400% increase since the 90s) that should be admonished for not properly preparing its students for what the profession is really about.</p>
<p>&#8220;self-actualizing people see life clearly. They are less emotional and more objective, less likely to allow hopes, fears, or ego defenses to distort their observations. Maslow found that all self-actualizing people are dedicated to a vocation or a cause. Two requirements for growth are commitment to something greater than oneself and success at one&#8217;s chosen tasks. Major characteristics of self-actualizing people include creativity, spontaneity, courage, and hard work.&#8221;</p>
<p><a href="http://www.abraham-maslow.com/m_motivation/Hierarchy_of_Needs.asp" rel="nofollow">http://www.abraham-maslow.com/m_motivation/Hierarchy_of_Needs.asp</a></p>
<p>It is my opinion that if a law student is not seeking the true profession of law by attending law school, perhaps attending a business school and receiving an MBA is their better choice.</p>
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		<title>By: Living It</title>
		<link>http://minnlawyer.com/minnlawyerblog/2009/06/15/is-a-jd-becoming-a-bad-gamble/comment-page-1/#comment-1103</link>
		<dc:creator>Living It</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Jun 2009 20:25:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://minnlawyerblog.com/?p=2766#comment-1103</guid>
		<description>Is it a gamble?  Yes.  I do not recommend it to anyone anymore and I try to talk prospects out of it unless they are willing to complete a dual degree.  I am living the resentment of having sacrificed so much precious time, being saddled with debt and earning only slightly more than I did as a law clerk (not to mention the great hours and benefits of clerking and none of the stress).  I would never want the big firm lifestyle, but what I have to offer is worth more than the return I am receiving from my investment.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Is it a gamble?  Yes.  I do not recommend it to anyone anymore and I try to talk prospects out of it unless they are willing to complete a dual degree.  I am living the resentment of having sacrificed so much precious time, being saddled with debt and earning only slightly more than I did as a law clerk (not to mention the great hours and benefits of clerking and none of the stress).  I would never want the big firm lifestyle, but what I have to offer is worth more than the return I am receiving from my investment.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark Cohen</title>
		<link>http://minnlawyer.com/minnlawyerblog/2009/06/15/is-a-jd-becoming-a-bad-gamble/comment-page-1/#comment-1102</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark Cohen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Jun 2009 15:10:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://minnlawyerblog.com/?p=2766#comment-1102</guid>
		<description>A lot of people do enroll in law school to increase their earning potential over a BA. Others want to do something socially meaningful that may not increase earning potential (e.g. Legal Aid, Public Defense, other public-sector work). Still others may just think they mighte like to do what lawyers do. (For many, it&#039;s a combination of these.) Sadly, the current recession has hit the interests of all these groups -- with cuts in both the public and private sector.

Potential law students looking for the maximum economic return should probably start their own hedge fund with their tuition ...  On the other hand, if being a lawyer is really what you want to do for the next 40-50 years, it&#039;s hard to say you shouldn&#039;t pursue that dream just because you may have been able to find a job that yields more $ and requires less education.

The other major issue is that the major barrier to entry in the profession (i.e. the amount of loan debt many students incur) is currently disproportionately high to economic rewards available to many of them. Even some of the &quot;winners&quot; who land the increasingly scarce Big Firm jobs may not really be &quot;winners&quot; if they don&#039;t really want to be there working the hours, but have to because of loan debt.

I suppose the key is to go on with eyes wide open, which is where I think that the current system often breaks down.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A lot of people do enroll in law school to increase their earning potential over a BA. Others want to do something socially meaningful that may not increase earning potential (e.g. Legal Aid, Public Defense, other public-sector work). Still others may just think they mighte like to do what lawyers do. (For many, it&#8217;s a combination of these.) Sadly, the current recession has hit the interests of all these groups &#8212; with cuts in both the public and private sector.</p>
<p>Potential law students looking for the maximum economic return should probably start their own hedge fund with their tuition &#8230;  On the other hand, if being a lawyer is really what you want to do for the next 40-50 years, it&#8217;s hard to say you shouldn&#8217;t pursue that dream just because you may have been able to find a job that yields more $ and requires less education.</p>
<p>The other major issue is that the major barrier to entry in the profession (i.e. the amount of loan debt many students incur) is currently disproportionately high to economic rewards available to many of them. Even some of the &#8220;winners&#8221; who land the increasingly scarce Big Firm jobs may not really be &#8220;winners&#8221; if they don&#8217;t really want to be there working the hours, but have to because of loan debt.</p>
<p>I suppose the key is to go on with eyes wide open, which is where I think that the current system often breaks down.</p>
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		<title>By: anoon</title>
		<link>http://minnlawyer.com/minnlawyerblog/2009/06/15/is-a-jd-becoming-a-bad-gamble/comment-page-1/#comment-1101</link>
		<dc:creator>anoon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Jun 2009 00:36:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://minnlawyerblog.com/?p=2766#comment-1101</guid>
		<description>My answer to the question posed by Mark: yes</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My answer to the question posed by Mark: yes</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://minnlawyer.com/minnlawyerblog/2009/06/15/is-a-jd-becoming-a-bad-gamble/comment-page-1/#comment-1100</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Jun 2009 21:36:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://minnlawyerblog.com/?p=2766#comment-1100</guid>
		<description>I think a lot of people expect the payoff to be higher earning potential.  I&#039;d be pretty angry if I found out that I spent three/four years and tons of extra money to make as much as I could&#039;ve done in a different field with just an undergraduate degree.  I mean, what&#039;s the point then?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think a lot of people expect the payoff to be higher earning potential.  I&#8217;d be pretty angry if I found out that I spent three/four years and tons of extra money to make as much as I could&#8217;ve done in a different field with just an undergraduate degree.  I mean, what&#8217;s the point then?</p>
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		<title>By: Mark Cohen</title>
		<link>http://minnlawyer.com/minnlawyerblog/2009/06/15/is-a-jd-becoming-a-bad-gamble/comment-page-1/#comment-1099</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark Cohen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Jun 2009 20:57:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://minnlawyerblog.com/?p=2766#comment-1099</guid>
		<description>&quot;Pollyanna&quot; has touched on a pretty important point here. Whether or not you view a JD as a &quot;bad gamble&quot; has a lot to do with what you expect the payoff to be.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Pollyanna&#8221; has touched on a pretty important point here. Whether or not you view a JD as a &#8220;bad gamble&#8221; has a lot to do with what you expect the payoff to be.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://minnlawyer.com/minnlawyerblog/2009/06/15/is-a-jd-becoming-a-bad-gamble/comment-page-1/#comment-1098</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Jun 2009 20:03:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://minnlawyerblog.com/?p=2766#comment-1098</guid>
		<description>Meee-ow Anonymous 9:40!

Also, I&#039;m with Jasper on this one. I&#039;ve been waiting for someone to chime in from the middle ground for a while.  I am working, thankfully, and will be for a little while after the bar exam in July.  After that, who knows?  I&#039;m saddled with debt up to my ears ... and it was worth every penny.

It saddens me to hear things like, &quot;for the most part, learning the law is frighteningly tedious,&quot; from Anonymous 12:38.  I&#039;m not saying it&#039;s a walk in the park, but it is pretty damn great.

I guess what I&#039;m saying is that your attitude shapes your thoughts about the gamble, and what winning really means. In my book, that does not include &quot;Big Law,&quot; working 80+ hours a week, or measuring the value of my experiences by the amount of money I earn.

Love,
Pollyanna</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Meee-ow Anonymous 9:40!</p>
<p>Also, I&#8217;m with Jasper on this one. I&#8217;ve been waiting for someone to chime in from the middle ground for a while.  I am working, thankfully, and will be for a little while after the bar exam in July.  After that, who knows?  I&#8217;m saddled with debt up to my ears &#8230; and it was worth every penny.</p>
<p>It saddens me to hear things like, &#8220;for the most part, learning the law is frighteningly tedious,&#8221; from Anonymous 12:38.  I&#8217;m not saying it&#8217;s a walk in the park, but it is pretty damn great.</p>
<p>I guess what I&#8217;m saying is that your attitude shapes your thoughts about the gamble, and what winning really means. In my book, that does not include &#8220;Big Law,&#8221; working 80+ hours a week, or measuring the value of my experiences by the amount of money I earn.</p>
<p>Love,<br />
Pollyanna</p>
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