NYT: Recent law grads feeling like they are drowning
Jan 18th, 2010 by Mark Cohen
There has been a lot of talk on this blog and throughout the legal blogosphere about how, due to the Great Recession, the door of opportunity has slammed shut on many recent law grads. That discussion has been chiefly on the Internet — and, of course, in niche law publications such as Minnesota Lawyer – but recently it has been spilling into the mainstream media.
A Washington, D.C., lawyer, Mark Greenbaum, penned a much-discussed opinion piece that appeared a couple of weeks ago in the L.A. Times (”No More Room at the Bench“). Greenbaum noted that “thousands of lawyers now find themselves drowning in the unemployment line as the legal sector is being badly saturated with attorneys.”
Greenbaum went on to accuse the American Bar Association of shirking its responsibility to the profession by accrediting too many law schools in market that already has too many lawyers. His proposed solution? “The U.S. Department of Education should strip the ABA of its accreditor status and give the authority to an organization that is free of conflicts of interest, such as the Assn. of American Law Schools or a new group.”
Comments like Greenbaum’s have been floating around the Internet for years — but the fact that a major newspaper would now provide a forum for such views underscores how desperate the situation has become for debt-laden law grads.
Now, the New York Times has weighed in on the oversaturated legal job market with a piece called “No Longer their Golden Ticket.” The report — dated Jan. 15 — was not an opinion piece, but a news article (although it inexplicably appeared in the paper’s fashion & style section). Here’s an excerpt: “As the profession lurches through its worst slump in decades, with jobs and bonuses cut and internal pressures to perform rising, associates do not just feel as if they are diving into the deep end, but rather, drowning.”
A partner at a Manhattan firm cited in the article was kind enough to share a few of his ”candid” insights with the NYT:
Some partners say that the next generation may have to expect less from a legal career. “What has come to pass is that a law degree is not a ticket to a six-figure salary and a six-figure bonus,” said Matthew A. Feldman, a partner at Willkie Farr & Gallagher in New York.
Smart, talented people will still find advancement within firms, he said. But “speaking candidly,” he added, “in the past, associates were a little oblivious” in presuming that if they “simply showed up every day and didn’t offend anyone, they were there indefinitely. They have had a wake-up call.”
Note to self: Make sure to offend at least one person today …
The plight faced by the incoming generation of lawyers is deeply disturbing. The profession owes it to them to find ways to throw them a line rather than just letting them take on water. It’s also time to start rethinking the legal education and licensing model for the long term. Graduating an inordinate amount of fledgling attorneys with six-figure debt loads in an era of dwindling opportunities is, to say the least, an unwise model to follow.
I’m a mid-life, 2009 graduate. I now have six-figures of additional debt on top of my underwater home. I can’t get a job in my old career because (1) employers are scared off by a three year gap, and (2) a J.D. makes them think I’ll split as soon as things turn around. I can’t get a job in my new career because no one is hiring.
I worked hard and graduated with honors. This isn’t what I expected. But, of course, life isn’t fair. Fortunately I have some financial assistance from my family. When I see pictures from Haiti I feel absolutely ashamed for feeling any self-pity. Life goes on.
Kudos to you, Mark, for supporting a change in the system. I just wish that someone out there would actually listen. The odds of that aren’t great.
It’s going to take a huge lobbying effort by lawyers–against their own trade association, no less–to stop the insanity we now find ourselves in.
For more on this issue, see the recent post in Lawyerist: http://bit.ly/5VHEbh
In the comments section, some crazy lawyer is so disgusted by the status quo that he suggests doing away with law licenses altogether.
Speaking of Lawyerist, Minneapolis attorney Sam Glover had a post on MinnPost last month in which he postulated that most prospective law students today would be better off financially if they went to work at McDonald’s instead.
While I haven’t done the math on that myself, I’ve got to believe that such a switch in career paths, however good for their pocketbooks, would not be good for their future cholesterol levels.
@Andy: Thanks for the link. I agree with that article’s observation that a big part of the problem may be that law schools get their money up front with little risk long-term. Combine that with loose lending standards, federal loan guarantees, non-dischargable debt, and upward pressure on student loan caps, and it is easy to see a moral hazard for law schools.
@Mark: Maybe MinnLawyer can check in with the local deans and ask some hard questions about what sacrifices the law schools are making? Or will we simply see increased enrollment, upward tuition, etc.?
I’m thinking working at McDonald’s would have had less of an effect on my heart health than the stress of the last few months.
But then, I wouldn’t be able to put an “Esq.” behind my name, which has been something of a goal since Bill & Ted’s Excellent Adventure.
Mark, that’s some great clip art, by the way.
LOL! Perhaps “Bill & Ted’s Excellent Adventure” was prescient. Despite the “esquire” the character self-importantly adds to his own name in the movie (and without attending an ABA-approved law school, mind you), Bill Preston winds up becoming a musician, not a lawyer.
The movie does offer one great piece of advice to those of you feeling down from the sour economy: “Be excellent everybody!”
(BTW — Minnesota Lawyer last June ran a video series interviewing the local law school deans on the challenges faced by their schools’ grads in the “new” economy. Click here for a synopsis and links to the videos.)
Note to self: Make sure to offend at least one person today …
Excellent advice to any old-school Journalist with a capital J, of which Minnesota Lawyer has more than one. Excellent post and discussion here, Mr. Cohen; thanks.
I just want to say the Univeristy of Minnesota School of Law is the biggest joke ever.
The profs are way over payed and the professors teach silly theories with no practical application to real life.
With respect to teaching theory, the U is really no different from other law schools highly ranked by U.S. News & World Report. … But perhaps that’s the problem?
The Carnegie Report from a few years back decried law schools’ overreliance on theory rather than practice. That’s all well and good, but all the top law schools in U.S. News do just that. They focus on theory instead of practice.
Are prospective law students going to choose their school based upon a relatively obscure report, or the most publicized set of rankings in academia?
Until Harvard and Yale send out press releases announcing their transition from theoretically to practically-based education, no one’s going to care.
Its terrible out there. I ruined my life by going to law school.
My advice to 1LS at the U of M. If you are not well into the 2nd Quartile after the completion of your 1l year drop out. I know plenty of students who graduated in the first quartile who are still unemployed. I know very few students in the bottom half of the class who are employed as lawyers.
Of the top 7 overall in the WMCL 2011 class, only one (#3) got an offer out of OCI.
WMCL
I’m so sorry to hear that.
@Mark: I enjoyed your discussion last June with the Deans. Are you planning a follow up with them, as they prepare to give diplomas to another batch of customers?
In just six months another 800+ will sit for the Minnesota bar, and tens of thousands at other bars across the country. If things don’t pick up significantly in the job market, it is only going to get much, much worse.
I’d like to hear what the local Deans are doing to react to this supply & demand problem, and how they connect what they are doing to actual, tangible benefits to their customers (past, present, and future.) In the last interview I saw a lot of hand waving, but then the class of 2009 hadn’t crashed and burned yet.
I’d also like to know if they would allow an independent inspection of the employment and salary statistics they are submitting to LSAC, US News, etc., assuming the inspection addressed applicable privacy concerns.
I am confident the Deans are caring people, and think every day about how to improve the outcomes for their students. I would think they have a lot of new news to share, it having been seven months since their last discussion with MinnLawyer.
I’d also like to know if they would allow an independent inspection of the employment and salary statistics they are submitting to LSAC, US News, etc., assuming the inspection addressed applicable privacy concerns.
This is a very good idea, but it will never happen in the absence of Congressional legislation. The vast majority of Law schools have no incentive to let prospective student know their real chances of becoming a lawyer.
@WMCL 2011–
That OCI number is just absurd. I’m not saying the big firms should hire half the class, but you’ve got to be kidding me.
At this rate, 90% of 2010 bar-passers will be unemployable, unless they open a solo-practice in Idaho. (Apologies to the fine state of Idaho.)
“Taking into account retirements, deaths and that the bureau’s data is pre-recession, the number of new positions is likely to be fewer than 30,000 per year. That is far fewer than what’s needed to accommodate the 45,000 juris doctors graduating from U.S. law schools each year.” From the WSJ blog post, linked above.
This quote seems most succinct to me. It would seem equally possible that this number will decrease for the many reasons mentioned in other reports (more pressure from clients, outsourcing, computer software for wills etc.).
With 15,000 or so unemployed lawyers each year, when is it going to reach a tipping point? Something it seems, has got to give.
There’s an interesting piece in the online version of The Economist that starts out as follows:
WHAT do you say to a recent law-school graduate?
“A skinny double-shot latte to go, please.”
Click here for more.
And, in other sad news, the Starbucks nearest WMCL (at Victoria & Grand) will be closing this week. Not only do the top WMCL students not have jobs, they also have to walk an extra six blocks to get their venti lattes.
Not to worry. I think you’ll find that these days it’s still a remarkably short hop to go from barrister to barista.
Mark
Can you not be so glib about this? Real people are suffering.
Gallows humor. I think everybody at this point realizes the seriousness of the situation.
Do they? Because in the last six months I’ve heard nothing from the Dean of my law school about what they are doing to adjust to the new market.
I know from speaking with the four local deans that they are all well aware of and concerned with what’s going on in the market.
That said, you are right that not much has been done in terms of fundamental change in the legal education model both here or nationally. Most of the steps taken so far have been treating this as a short-term “economy is down” problem. But I think there is a growing recognition that the problem is systemic.
In the meantime, we do have a reporter, Patrick Thornton, following up on the issues faced by recent law school grads. If you have anything meaningful to add to his story, you can reach him at patrick.thornton@minnlawyer.com or by phone at (612) 584-1554.
I would be curious to confirm a few things:
1) Is it true that William Mitchell’s class admission this year is over 300? Is it also true that they have traditionally been in the mid-200’s? My 2007 graduating class was around 270 I believe.
2) The statistics on William Mitchell’s OCI job offers was directly contradicted by another source with whom I spoke last week. That source was told a different story by several Mitchell students who clerk for my source. What is the real story?
3) Do any of the schools plan to merge or otherwise create a long- term solution to the problem, knowing that it (apparently) goes beyond economic downturn?
I am also curious if applications are up or down at the local schools?
3) Do any of the schools plan to merge or otherwise create a long- term solution to the problem, knowing that it (apparently) goes beyond economic downturn?
It doesn’t seem likely. While the situation is terrible for new law grads its great for people who work in legal education. Salaries for law professors are extremely high. Listen to the interview with the deans from June. All of them seemed quite satisfied with the state of legal education and couldn’t care less about the debt loads students take on. Many of the deans, especially the dean of St. Thomas, dismissed concerns about unemployed graduates. The status quo will remain as long as there is prospective students willing to take on debt to go to law school.
I did not attend William Mitchell so I don’t if his stats are accurate. I can tell you based on my experience at the U of M a majority of students are still looking for full time work as an attorney.
I am also curious if applications are up or down at the local schools?
I believe that they are up. The problem is as follows. Prospective students are young and have unrealistic expectations so they are willing to take on large amounts of debt. Furthermore, many prospective students trust the information they receive from law schools. I stupidly did. The current law that prevents students from discharging debt causing tuition to rapidly increase. This is especially true for non T14 schools, because lenders would not give out money to attend these institutions because of job prospects. Furthermore, attending for 1 year to see if you have the grades to get a job wouldn’t be that bad of an idea if you could force yourself to drop out if you didn’t earn them.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_hazard
“Moral hazard occurs when a party insulated from risk may behave differently than it would behave if it were fully exposed to the risk.”
“I know from speaking with the four local deans that they are all well aware of and concerned with what’s going on in the market.
That said, you are right that not much has been done in terms of fundamental change in the legal education model both here or nationally. Most of the steps taken so far have been treating this as a short-term “economy is down” problem. But I think there is a growing recognition that the problem is systemic.”
That isn’t the impression I got from your interviews with Law School Deans. Furthermore, the actions they have taken show that they are not really concerned, i.e, raising tuition. Do they sing a different tune in private than in public?
I will also add a story from 1l orientation. Dean Keyes, speaking to the entire class stated. “Don’t worry you will all get jobs, you will all get jobs.” Now, I doubt this advice was accurate in 2006, but we know its not accurate in 2009. I hope she doesn’t state this anymore at orientation.
@John Murphy: My figure is based on personal knowledge of the seven individuals who were at the top of their class after 1L and are currently 2Ls. Four people were tied for 3rd.
Only one individual in the top 7 overall in our 1L class received an offer to work as a summer associate through OCI. I can’t speak to anyone else below the top 7. It’s entirely possible that other students not in the top 7 got summer associate offers. But if employers aren’t hiring the top students, what does that say about the economy? The school?
Reading WMCL 2011’s comment, I can’t help but think that if the 2009 class got together and calculated its own employment, etc. statistics, that might be useful to have to add more detail to the reported #s.
@WMCL 2011:
And yet, how many students in your class will decide to drop out of law school? We had 1 out of 273 quit saying “this isn’t what I thought it was going to be.” (paraphrased of course). I admire her so much for her strength in deciding her life path….
I’m not as hysterical as others. Maybe it’s because I’m still in school.
I think there will always be a market for lawyers who do good work–regardless of what happens with the economy. I just wish the law schools were a little more candid with their students and properly set expectations.
Of course, the last thing that WMCL is going to do is tell their incoming class “well, it doesn’t matter if you finish your first year ranked #1, #2, or #3, you’re still unlikely to get a job through our on campus interviewing process.”
We had 1 out of 273 quit saying “this isn’t what I thought it was going to be.” (paraphrased of course). I admire her so much for her strength in deciding her life path….
I had a strong suspicion that the law school was scamming. I wish had the courage to drop out after my 1l year.
You are correct: There will always be a market for lawyers doing good work. However, at what market rate? When I started my firm in 2007, prices for estate planning were roughly three times what the market now bears for the same essential planning due to the flood of recent practitioners scratching to make any living to pay loans. The same is true for most drafting work. Competition drives prices down to the point where decent legal practitioners now make the same or less full time than before law school (depending on their prior experience in their field of course), if they make anything.
I know of three classmates (just off the top of my head) who graduated in the top 25% who have no jobs, and can’t get hired at Target to supplement sporadic contract work. Immediately people think, “well sure, but they’re the exception…probably can’t even talk to someone in person.” Wrong. These are bright, articulate, experienced adults (over 30) with prior careers and excellent people skills. I think the shame factor keeps most grads with little hope from raising their hands to be counted.
Until we start to recognize this problem is persisting and require a sea change, we will be the best-educated wage-earners making in the $30K’s (or lower?)
Great Post John
The danger for society is eventually a point will be reached were salaries drop so low, that the quality of lawyers performing these jobs will enter a big decline.
Just an update for those of you wishing to further pick at this scab:
I had lunch this weekend with a colleague from an unnamed southern metro county who is an assistant county attorney. This county has recently added two bar-admitted attorneys as “special county attorneys” on a contract basis at $11.00 per hour without benefits.
On the upside, they are free to take time to interview for other positions, and are at least earning something. On the downside, my son was making $8.00 per hour starting wage at Target in 10th grade a couple years ago.
Feel free to discuss.
This is just a simple matter of supply and demand. $11/hour is apparently the market rate. I would expect they had many more than two applicants… probably a whole pile, sadly. Yes, it is ridiculous that they could make more waiting tables or bartending. But they are getting valuable experience. Something to be said for that.
I find it interesting that the big firms are moving away from lockstep. They may secretly dislike that, in this economy, their associates are making six figure salaries and expect yearly, lockstep raises. There is a ton of good talent out there to cherry pick at low cost and then bill out at big bucks.