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	<title>Comments on: How about a law school that competes on price?</title>
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	<link>http://minnlawyer.com/minnlawyerblog/2009/04/06/how-about-a-law-school-that-competes-on-price/</link>
	<description>If it’s legal, you can discuss it here</description>
	<pubDate>Fri, 30 Jul 2010 15:42:04 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: The incredible case of the law grad $400K in debt &#171; MinnLawyer blog</title>
		<link>http://minnlawyer.com/minnlawyerblog/2009/04/06/how-about-a-law-school-that-competes-on-price/#comment-991</link>
		<dc:creator>The incredible case of the law grad $400K in debt &#171; MinnLawyer blog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Jul 2009 15:12:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://minnlawyerblog.com/?p=2209#comment-991</guid>
		<description>[...] a bit on this site about the pernicious effects of growing law student debt loads (see, e.g., here, here, here and here.) . In case you missed it, there was a story in the New York Times that provides a [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] a bit on this site about the pernicious effects of growing law student debt loads (see, e.g., here, here, here and here.) . In case you missed it, there was a story in the New York Times that provides a [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Petition: Minnesota bar exam shouldn&#8217;t be limited to grads of ABA accredited schools &#171; MinnLawyer blog</title>
		<link>http://minnlawyer.com/minnlawyerblog/2009/04/06/how-about-a-law-school-that-competes-on-price/#comment-988</link>
		<dc:creator>Petition: Minnesota bar exam shouldn&#8217;t be limited to grads of ABA accredited schools &#171; MinnLawyer blog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Apr 2009 20:38:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://minnlawyerblog.com/?p=2209#comment-988</guid>
		<description>[...] 29, 2009 by Mark Cohen    I have blogged before here that something has to give in our current system of legal education. Annual tuition rates are in an [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] 29, 2009 by Mark Cohen    I have blogged before here that something has to give in our current system of legal education. Annual tuition rates are in an [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Mark Cohen</title>
		<link>http://minnlawyer.com/minnlawyerblog/2009/04/06/how-about-a-law-school-that-competes-on-price/#comment-981</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark Cohen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Apr 2009 03:10:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://minnlawyerblog.com/?p=2209#comment-981</guid>
		<description>I'm certainly not in favor of scrapping the U's law school -- and I can't imagine there being an effort in that direction. The U right now has the double advantage of being the only "nationally ranked" law school (for what that's worth) and being the least expensive tuition-wise. not a bad deal. My point was that despite being the least expensive, it's still a pretty penny that will leave most students in debt. Maybe Dean Washburn is right -- New Mexico is where it's at in the future. I'd like to see the U able to give in-state folk a deal like that. But you know what they say, if wishes were horses ...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m certainly not in favor of scrapping the U&#8217;s law school &#8212; and I can&#8217;t imagine there being an effort in that direction. The U right now has the double advantage of being the only &#8220;nationally ranked&#8221; law school (for what that&#8217;s worth) and being the least expensive tuition-wise. not a bad deal. My point was that despite being the least expensive, it&#8217;s still a pretty penny that will leave most students in debt. Maybe Dean Washburn is right &#8212; New Mexico is where it&#8217;s at in the future. I&#8217;d like to see the U able to give in-state folk a deal like that. But you know what they say, if wishes were horses &#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: UMN Law Grad</title>
		<link>http://minnlawyer.com/minnlawyerblog/2009/04/06/how-about-a-law-school-that-competes-on-price/#comment-980</link>
		<dc:creator>UMN Law Grad</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Apr 2009 22:47:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://minnlawyerblog.com/?p=2209#comment-980</guid>
		<description>Mark, I'm not suggesting that the subsidy should be increased (although that would be welcome), but I point out the number in response to your earlier comment that "precisely because of this subsidy the U is currently the most affordable of the choices." I think your comment was assuming a much larger state subsidy, or at least you certainly didn't demonstrate that the removal of the 7% the U currently receives would completely eliminate the difference in price between the other three law schools.

I also point out the stat because Anon #2 seems to assume that eliminating the state subsidy would create significant savings for the budget, while the real amount of state funding the U law school receives suggests otherwise.

I think you also raise a point worth noting regarding the "nationally ranked" tag. If the U were to shut down, I'm not sure the would-be applicants would automatically flow to the other three law schools.

Compare the difference in the LSAT scores and GPAs among the entering classes at each of the law schools. The difference is quite significant. It's clear that the U's ranking allows it to attract applicants that the other three law schools do not. I think having a nationally ranked school here helps the legal market.  Without the U (or another school with a similar national ranking), I certainly would have attended law school outside of the state and may not have wound up here to practice, given the provincial nature of the legal hiring.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mark, I&#8217;m not suggesting that the subsidy should be increased (although that would be welcome), but I point out the number in response to your earlier comment that &#8220;precisely because of this subsidy the U is currently the most affordable of the choices.&#8221; I think your comment was assuming a much larger state subsidy, or at least you certainly didn&#8217;t demonstrate that the removal of the 7% the U currently receives would completely eliminate the difference in price between the other three law schools.</p>
<p>I also point out the stat because Anon #2 seems to assume that eliminating the state subsidy would create significant savings for the budget, while the real amount of state funding the U law school receives suggests otherwise.</p>
<p>I think you also raise a point worth noting regarding the &#8220;nationally ranked&#8221; tag. If the U were to shut down, I&#8217;m not sure the would-be applicants would automatically flow to the other three law schools.</p>
<p>Compare the difference in the LSAT scores and GPAs among the entering classes at each of the law schools. The difference is quite significant. It&#8217;s clear that the U&#8217;s ranking allows it to attract applicants that the other three law schools do not. I think having a nationally ranked school here helps the legal market.  Without the U (or another school with a similar national ranking), I certainly would have attended law school outside of the state and may not have wound up here to practice, given the provincial nature of the legal hiring.</p>
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		<title>By: Inexpensive law school? How about a free one? &#171; MinnLawyer blog</title>
		<link>http://minnlawyer.com/minnlawyerblog/2009/04/06/how-about-a-law-school-that-competes-on-price/#comment-985</link>
		<dc:creator>Inexpensive law school? How about a free one? &#171; MinnLawyer blog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Apr 2009 14:51:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://minnlawyerblog.com/?p=2209#comment-985</guid>
		<description>[...] 21, 2009 by Mark Cohen    We&#8217;ve had a good discussion on this blog about the need for a lower cost means of obtaining a legal education (or at least one that would [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] 21, 2009 by Mark Cohen    We&#8217;ve had a good discussion on this blog about the need for a lower cost means of obtaining a legal education (or at least one that would [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Mark Cohen</title>
		<link>http://minnlawyer.com/minnlawyerblog/2009/04/06/how-about-a-law-school-that-competes-on-price/#comment-987</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark Cohen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 Apr 2009 13:38:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://minnlawyerblog.com/?p=2209#comment-987</guid>
		<description>Interesting, although if you are suggesting increasing that subsidy to create a more affordable state law school, I'm thinking that'd be a pretty tough sell in the Legislature right now given the deficit situation. I don't suspect that the conundrum of making legal education is likely at this point to be solved with public dollars.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Interesting, although if you are suggesting increasing that subsidy to create a more affordable state law school, I&#8217;m thinking that&#8217;d be a pretty tough sell in the Legislature right now given the deficit situation. I don&#8217;t suspect that the conundrum of making legal education is likely at this point to be solved with public dollars.</p>
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		<title>By: UMN Law Grad</title>
		<link>http://minnlawyer.com/minnlawyerblog/2009/04/06/how-about-a-law-school-that-competes-on-price/#comment-986</link>
		<dc:creator>UMN Law Grad</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 Apr 2009 01:45:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://minnlawyerblog.com/?p=2209#comment-986</guid>
		<description>Anonymous #2 and Mark Cohen: Are either of you aware of the fact that UMN Law School only receives 7% of its operating budget from state sources? That's right, 93% of the funds to cover its operating budget comes from tuition and other private sources (e.g. endowment income).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Anonymous #2 and Mark Cohen: Are either of you aware of the fact that UMN Law School only receives 7% of its operating budget from state sources? That&#8217;s right, 93% of the funds to cover its operating budget comes from tuition and other private sources (e.g. endowment income).</p>
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		<title>By: Adam Chelseth</title>
		<link>http://minnlawyer.com/minnlawyerblog/2009/04/06/how-about-a-law-school-that-competes-on-price/#comment-979</link>
		<dc:creator>Adam Chelseth</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Apr 2009 17:32:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://minnlawyerblog.com/?p=2209#comment-979</guid>
		<description>All posters thus far have arrived--or come close to arriving--at the same conclusion: law school is too expensive.  I agree; it's one of the single most important worries for prospective students and it may even discourage those who could be very successful in the profession.

But how do we fix the problem?  State schools generally have an easier time of it because they can rely on government subsidies.  But even then, tuition at the U of M has gone up dramatically since I was applying to law school and it shows no sign of slowing down.  The private institutions are even worse, as students inevitably bear the majority of operating costs.

I honestly don't see how the trend in higher costs can be reversed.  Law schools need to attract the "best" professors, so salaries are heavily incentivized.  Law schools need to attract the "best" students, so higher and higher amounts available for scholarships become imperative, and negative shifting occurs toward the non-scholarship students.  And what about something so simple as heating and cooling the campus, or the massive electrical bill?  All these factors point toward a steady and expensive climb.

Perhaps it's just the market at work.  Hypothetically speaking, if a law school charging $30,000 tuition were to suddenly and permanently reduce that number by half, I'd bet good money that it would close within a few years, barring significant intervention from government or private donors.  Regardless, I wouldn't want to sit in on those budget meetings.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>All posters thus far have arrived&#8211;or come close to arriving&#8211;at the same conclusion: law school is too expensive.  I agree; it&#8217;s one of the single most important worries for prospective students and it may even discourage those who could be very successful in the profession.</p>
<p>But how do we fix the problem?  State schools generally have an easier time of it because they can rely on government subsidies.  But even then, tuition at the U of M has gone up dramatically since I was applying to law school and it shows no sign of slowing down.  The private institutions are even worse, as students inevitably bear the majority of operating costs.</p>
<p>I honestly don&#8217;t see how the trend in higher costs can be reversed.  Law schools need to attract the &#8220;best&#8221; professors, so salaries are heavily incentivized.  Law schools need to attract the &#8220;best&#8221; students, so higher and higher amounts available for scholarships become imperative, and negative shifting occurs toward the non-scholarship students.  And what about something so simple as heating and cooling the campus, or the massive electrical bill?  All these factors point toward a steady and expensive climb.</p>
<p>Perhaps it&#8217;s just the market at work.  Hypothetically speaking, if a law school charging $30,000 tuition were to suddenly and permanently reduce that number by half, I&#8217;d bet good money that it would close within a few years, barring significant intervention from government or private donors.  Regardless, I wouldn&#8217;t want to sit in on those budget meetings.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://minnlawyer.com/minnlawyerblog/2009/04/06/how-about-a-law-school-that-competes-on-price/#comment-977</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Apr 2009 16:36:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://minnlawyerblog.com/?p=2209#comment-977</guid>
		<description>I concur with threads of each post.  My path to law school was unique.  Shooting robustly from blue collar roots, law school always seemed a bit out of reach.  Following high school, life directed me to the military, where I was fortunate enough to earn my undergraduate degree under the G.I. Bill.  With G.I. Bill money left to burn, I looked at law school.  Despite the G.I. Bill, following graduation, I am still staring at $75,000 in student loans.

Like the previous poster, I was laboring under the misconception that tuition costs at the University of Minnesota were “reasonable.”  From the time I applied to the time I graduated, tuition increased by numbers that, in hindsight are extreme.  One “solution” to this dilemma would be to “lock-in” students at the applied-for rate.  This would protect would-be students from the tuition explosion I experienced.

The root of the problem to me, however, lies in law school’s length.  I agree that the current three-year model can be improved.  While a law school student I worked on a number of committees designed to address the law school curriculum.  My experiences led me to believe a major overhaul is in order.

The first-year curriculum is strong.  It teaches students the basics for succeeding in our profession.  After that, there is diminishing return gained from continued classroom instruction.  More focus on practical application could better serve would-be lawyers and our communities.

I support a second year which is a split between being practice and theory-driven.  I envision a year of intense clinical work administered by the law school which marries that work with some subset of additional classes beyond traditional classroom topics.  (e.g., Tax, Evidence, BA Corps, Criminal Procedure)   There is no reason why the clinics cannot rotate through different practice areas in order to supplement first-year instruction.

As for the third year, I think there is room in our profession for an apprenticeship/internship model.  For too long we have employed a “summer associate” program in an effort to select lawyers for particular positions.  It seems we could improve the system by encouraging students to sample a variety of legal disciplines before corralling them toward a specific post.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I concur with threads of each post.  My path to law school was unique.  Shooting robustly from blue collar roots, law school always seemed a bit out of reach.  Following high school, life directed me to the military, where I was fortunate enough to earn my undergraduate degree under the G.I. Bill.  With G.I. Bill money left to burn, I looked at law school.  Despite the G.I. Bill, following graduation, I am still staring at $75,000 in student loans.</p>
<p>Like the previous poster, I was laboring under the misconception that tuition costs at the University of Minnesota were “reasonable.”  From the time I applied to the time I graduated, tuition increased by numbers that, in hindsight are extreme.  One “solution” to this dilemma would be to “lock-in” students at the applied-for rate.  This would protect would-be students from the tuition explosion I experienced.</p>
<p>The root of the problem to me, however, lies in law school’s length.  I agree that the current three-year model can be improved.  While a law school student I worked on a number of committees designed to address the law school curriculum.  My experiences led me to believe a major overhaul is in order.</p>
<p>The first-year curriculum is strong.  It teaches students the basics for succeeding in our profession.  After that, there is diminishing return gained from continued classroom instruction.  More focus on practical application could better serve would-be lawyers and our communities.</p>
<p>I support a second year which is a split between being practice and theory-driven.  I envision a year of intense clinical work administered by the law school which marries that work with some subset of additional classes beyond traditional classroom topics.  (e.g., Tax, Evidence, BA Corps, Criminal Procedure)   There is no reason why the clinics cannot rotate through different practice areas in order to supplement first-year instruction.</p>
<p>As for the third year, I think there is room in our profession for an apprenticeship/internship model.  For too long we have employed a “summer associate” program in an effort to select lawyers for particular positions.  It seems we could improve the system by encouraging students to sample a variety of legal disciplines before corralling them toward a specific post.</p>
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		<title>By: bt</title>
		<link>http://minnlawyer.com/minnlawyerblog/2009/04/06/how-about-a-law-school-that-competes-on-price/#comment-978</link>
		<dc:creator>bt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Apr 2009 14:56:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://minnlawyerblog.com/?p=2209#comment-978</guid>
		<description>When I was accepted to the U of Mn law school only ten years ago, the in-state tuition (which I qualified for, as a WI resident) was $9,000.  I was also offered a $1,000 scholarship.  This was by far the primary reason I chose to go to the U of Mn law school:  it was an incredible bargain.  Of course, by the time I actually got to law school, tuition was over $10,000, and it increased about $1000 every year.  Now in-state tuition (including fees of $2500) is . . . $24,500?!  That's $10,000 more than UW law school, which is where I would go if I were making the choice today.  U of Mn will not continue to attract top students at that price, especially in this economic climate.  I agree with Dean Washburn's advice:  follow him to New Mexico, spend a year bartending or something, and then go to law school for $36,000.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>When I was accepted to the U of Mn law school only ten years ago, the in-state tuition (which I qualified for, as a WI resident) was $9,000.  I was also offered a $1,000 scholarship.  This was by far the primary reason I chose to go to the U of Mn law school:  it was an incredible bargain.  Of course, by the time I actually got to law school, tuition was over $10,000, and it increased about $1000 every year.  Now in-state tuition (including fees of $2500) is . . . $24,500?!  That&#8217;s $10,000 more than UW law school, which is where I would go if I were making the choice today.  U of Mn will not continue to attract top students at that price, especially in this economic climate.  I agree with Dean Washburn&#8217;s advice:  follow him to New Mexico, spend a year bartending or something, and then go to law school for $36,000.</p>
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